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 #1 Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 07/09/2010 @ 22:16 |
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Hi,
I was reading a post on the forum not too long ago, to do with "turning", and someone used the phrase "foot peddling". At first, I thought they were referring to 'pushing the back foot out to force a turn' - or, "cheating".
But after searching a little, it seems "foot steering" and "foot peddling" are both referring to the approach of turning the board by selectively applying pressure to different areas on the board, using the feet. Have I got that right?
If so, is there an accepted term or phrase for lifting the back of the board/pushing the back of the board out, to force a turn?
Also - for any instructor types out there, maybe you could clear something up for me?
I've seen the McNab DVD, so I've seen a good explanation of the foot steering approach. When I learned, we were taught to initiate the turning process with our shoulders.
As absolute beginners, we pointed in the direction we wanted the board to take, which would in turn have the shoulders point in that direction, and the movement would progress down the body, hips, knees, feet and onto the board...
(Do people call this "shoulder steering"?)
So here's another question: is the foot steering approach preferred over the shoulder steering approach, for beginners?
When I watched the McNab DVD (the first explanation of foot steering for me) - I was impressed. After trying those techniques and exercises a lot, I've found it excellent for improving my technique.
BUT - I always thought that would be a harder concept for beginners to take in?
So, whilst foot steering seems the more precise and accurate way to control the board, the "simpler", indirect approach of looking, pointing & turning the upper body, to initiate the turning process, seemed a good introduction for beginners.
They can progress to foot steering as an intermediate?
Thanks for any input 
Gav |
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Afterbang Snowboarding Blog - keeping the snowboarding stoke going, all year round.
Two guides you might find useful: Learning to Snowboard and Getting Started with Snowboard Tricks |
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| #2 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 08/09/2010 @ 08:46 |
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Personally, remembering back to my beginner days long ago, I think whatever method used to teach a complete noob is going to be difficult to pick up. Can you remember the first time you strapped on a board? Could hardly pick myself up of my @rse never mind side slip.
Therefore, my opinion would always be teach them the proper technique straight off the bat so that they stand in good stead when they improve.
Foot Pedaling sets a good foundation for carving a speed (unless I'm doing it wrong!) given its required. Trying to use your shoulders at speed is going to cause problems for your face. 
So, while steering with the shoulders might ultimately be a little easier to pick up, you'd then have to either spend months (or years in some peoples case) correcting your bad habits in order to progress. Unless of course your happy to just be able to get down the hill.
I've personally never seen the point in teaching something that would then have to be untaught at some stage. We pick up enough bad habits all on our own without being taught them! |
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| #3 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 08/09/2010 @ 09:41 |
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i also learned back in old days when shoulder steering was cool, dont think foot pedaling was invented in 94!
as gaz says your going to hurt something trying to shoulder steer at speed.
after reading many articles and advice on sites like this, i realised for my own progression i would have to change riding style and learn this foot pedaling thing! it took a while and along with a few lessons here and there i cracked it,
i still prob thro the odd shoulder turn in now and again tho |
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| #4 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 08/09/2010 @ 15:34 |
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If i've got it right CASI teach shoulder turning first - quicker to pick up and better for people who are only out for a week a season as it means they can get around the mountain a bit more - then foot pedalling once you have got the hang of just being up on the board and moving.
BASI teach foot pedalling throughout - better technique leads to better riding but takes a bit longer to get going from a beginners point of view.
I learnt (still am) the CASI way and tend to have a bit of a s*** technique that I'm trying to sort out. All about having a good time though so not really that fussed. |
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| #5 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 08/09/2010 @ 16:11 |
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This is getting pretty interesting 
I'm gonna have to watch the McNab dvd again, and try to get hold of some instructors...
I posted a related question on another forum, mainly US shredders, just trying to find out what their take on it is, see if they use the same terms, have moved away from shoulder turning etc... and so far the few responses have been: "what, why are you turning with your feet?"
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Anyhow, I always saw the foot steering as a progression from the shoulder steering that I was taught with. I just assumed (might be wrong) that my head and shoulder movements had at some point translated into leg and foot movements, creating pressure in the needed areas...
So it was just a slightly indirect approach, with foot steering being more direct. Rather than being a bad or destructive technique that would require correcting, I viewed it as "not telling them the full story yet".
As long as you're not forcing the board to turn by skipping out the necessary foot pressure.
Cheers |
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Afterbang Snowboarding Blog - keeping the snowboarding stoke going, all year round.
Two guides you might find useful: Learning to Snowboard and Getting Started with Snowboard Tricks |
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| #6 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 08/09/2010 @ 18:57 |
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I remember my lessons like they were only yesterday and my ass was black and blue for weeks.
I learnt using the foot peadaling method in 2005/06. The instuctor used the accelerator and clutch analagy to get the explantion for the "peddaling" technique across.
If it helps, the order of training for each technique on each level at Tamworth Dome went something like this over levels 1-4. Each lesson lasted 1 hour or you could do a back to back 2 hour.There was also a progression session on other nights back then too once you were at "Recreational Standard"
Level 1 - Introduction :-
Into and getting feel of the board and slope safety etc etc.
Heel edge slip.
Toe Edge slip
Level 2 :-
Heel side slip using foot pedalling
Toe side slip using foot pedalling
Level 3:-
More Toe side and heel side slipping using foot pedalling
Garlands using foot pedalling
First turns from Toe side and heel side garlands
Turns from heels and toes using foot pedalling
Level 4:-
More of the same but incorporating more upper body movement excercises to add stability.
I repeated levels 1 and 2 twice as I was ready to give up at one stage due my continuous falling over but then one day I went up there and it just happened - I'd sussed it. |
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| #7 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 09/09/2010 @ 16:48 |
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Why put more effort in than you need to? When using your shoulders to initiate a turn you are passively foot pedaling as your upper body twist is forcing your lower half to do the same. With active foot pedaling you use your feet to manipulate the board's torsional flex keeping your upper body stable and inline with the board. The board is designed to turn using it's torsional flex and sidecut so turn it by design rather than by force.
One of the possible causes of pushing the back foot out is through rotation of the shoulders, causing a rudder effect with the back foot. If you see your back hand in front of you (handbag arm/mystery date) or you ride with your upper body facing downslope with a duck stance then you are more than likely using some rotation of the upper body to turn. Hit a bump or kicker like this and the twist in your upper body will have you spinning like a top whether you want to or not.
CASI teach the shoulder approach to beginners. It's a quick route to turning. However why teach something that you later have to unteach (which CASI do as they disgard shoulder turning later)? With BASI, the central theme system is a group of building blocks where you are adding something new each time to get to the end goal.
If you want some more info on foot pedaling then just ask. |
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| #8 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 09/09/2010 @ 17:09 |
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QUOTE (fatbob - 09/09/2010 @ 16:48) With BASI, the central theme system is a group of building blocks where you are adding something new each time to get to the end goal. If you want some more info on foot pedaling then just ask.
Which bears out how I was taught really.  |
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- Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us -
- Better to do something imperfectly than to do nothing flawlessly - |
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| #9 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 09/09/2010 @ 20:14 |
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| #10 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 09/09/2010 @ 20:18 |
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| #11 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 09/09/2010 @ 21:33 |
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QUOTE (fatbob - 09/09/2010 @ 16:48) [...> However why teach something that you later have to unteach (which CASI do as they disgard shoulder turning later)?
Indeed. That's my problem with most beginner-teaching orthodoxies for boarding and skiing. The problem is that they "get people going" quickly, but most of those people don't hang around for the lessons where they un-teach the bad stuff, with the result that most people can't ride beyond what you can learn in a couple of hours. |
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| #12 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 09/09/2010 @ 23:20 |
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surely to turn properly you turn your head, shoulders, engage the core, hips, knee steer and pedal the feet?
if you're not supposed to lead with your shoulders how do you do sharp turns on a steep mogul run? this thread makes it sound like it's all in the feet
also, i wouldn't say casi abandons shoulders, i thought it built on it, shoulders being a huge part of riding... the board will follow the shoulders |
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| #13 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 10/09/2010 @ 08:43 |
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QUOTE (itsgot - 09/09/2010 @ 23:20) surely to turn properly you turn your head, shoulders, engage the core, hips, knee steer and pedal the feet? if you're not supposed to lead with your shoulders how do you do sharp turns on a steep mogul run? this thread makes it sound like it's all in the feet also, i wouldn't say casi abandons shoulders, i thought it built on it, shoulders being a huge part of riding... the board will follow the shoulders
I dont think anyone is saying that your head,shoulders,core aren't involved and thats its all feet, I think they're just trying to highlight the differences in the two techniques employed by two different training bodies.
I, for one use my head, shoulders etc but as I have progressed over the years the uppder body's movements are completely in tune with my feet. If I want to switch to a more pronounced carve say on large arced turn then personally I feel my feet have a large part to play in it and my upper body is centred and pretty still really.
If I was picking my way through moguls then yes, my shoulders,arms,core and feet work more together to get me though them - with the emphasis on my shoulders. |
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- Our attitude toward life determines life's attitude towards us -
- Better to do something imperfectly than to do nothing flawlessly - |
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| #14 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 10/09/2010 @ 15:29 |
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QUOTE (itsgot - 09/09/2010 @ 23:20) also, i wouldn't say casi abandons shoulders, i thought it built on it, shoulders being a huge part of riding... the board will follow the shoulders
The board will follow the shoulders but why use them when in the main using your feet will suffice?
As Cossie replied, the question was regarding foot pedalling and shoulder turning not the rest of the body in relation to a turn.
For basic, standard and performance (carved) turns you don't need any rotation of the shoulders. They should remain parallel to the board with your head up and in the direction of travel.
For steeps and bumps your upper and lower body can become unattached as you use some upper body rotation to preempt a turn. |
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| #15 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 10/09/2010 @ 17:02 |
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Cossie's response sums it up.
I don't really see your point fatbob. This thread's about beginners moving up to intermediate, when presumably they start hitting steeper stuff and ought to know the importance of upper body work. I think without mentioning it people were only talking about carving* groomers. I agree for most riding you wouldn't be focused on shoulders at all.
out of curiosity at what point do CASI drop shoulder work? The level 2's I know do plenty of it - the focus is on leading with shoulders on steeps, both in bringing them round through 180degrees to complete your turn quickly and in dropping the front shoulder so you keep yourself parallel to the ground even on a steep slope where peoples tendency seems to be to lean back up the slope
To be picky I wouldn't describe your upper body as unattached on a steep, you use your core to drive the board round and follow the shoulders, as you would with a 180. Also, if you're that concerned about talking about other body parts why mention the head lol? The head has no effect on the board if your just using your neck to look around, unless, for example you're using it to direct the shoulders on say a heelside turn or a 360.
In general, and I'm just taking a punt, I think the point in shoulder turning as a beginner is that most beginners and in fact most people on the mountain are counter rotated all day long, ruddering their back foot round and all weighted on their back on anything steep. By leading with the shoulders it should force them to correct these things. I mean, you have to exagerate movements for beginners and just saying 'stay parallel to the board' probably doesn't cut it.
just my 2p |
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