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 #16 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 10/09/2010 @ 20:39 |
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QUOTE (itsgot - 10/09/2010 @ 17:02) ... most beginners and in fact most people on the mountain are counter rotated all day long, ruddering their back foot round and all weighted on their back on anything steep.
Correct. You see the same thing in powder, where it works even less well.
So it's interesting, and a shame, that the teaching systems are still failing to address that for whatever reason, despite some significant advances.
From observation I suspect that the percentage of boarders who "get it" is smaller than that of skiers, although the skiing teaching system share many features (eg teaching things you later have to unlearn).
Why does it matter? Well it doesn't, but there's no snow in the city tonight and actually it does matter because ruddering your back foot is unsatisfying for the rider; you can have much more fun with your board on edge.
I was looking at the Lucozade ad on the train today though, the one with the airbrushed sand boarders? No sign of orthodox riding there: not one of them had BASI shoulders. That said, all three have pretty crappy style IMHO. Did you know that Lucozade used to be marketed as a drink for sick people? Same sugar water, different image. Perhaps I should not start drinking at 18:00. |
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| #17 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 10/09/2010 @ 21:29 |
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Revision #1 (Last edited: 10/09/2010 @ 21:30) |
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QUOTE (itsgot - 10/09/2010 @ 17:02) I don't really see your point fatbob. This thread's about beginners moving up to intermediate, when presumably they start hitting steeper stuff and ought to know the importance of upper body work. I think without mentioning it people were only talking about carving* groomers. I agree for most riding you wouldn't be focused on shoulders at all.
Sorry, I was trying to say that for beginner turns you don't need to use your shoulders when you can use your feet. The original post was trying to decipher the differences between shoulder turning and foot pedalling for teaching beginners how to turn.
QUOTE (itsgot - 10/09/2010 @ 17:02) out of curiosity at what point do CASI drop shoulder work? The level 2's I know do plenty of it - the focus is on leading with shoulders on steeps, both in bringing them round through 180degrees to complete your turn quickly and in dropping the front shoulder so you keep yourself parallel to the ground even on a steep slope where peoples tendency seems to be to lean back up the slope
I'm not versed in the CASI teaching system. The information regarding teaching using the shoulders and foot predalling later is gleaned from a lesson in Canada in 2005 and having spoken to a few CASI level 2 instructors.
QUOTE (itsgot - 10/09/2010 @ 17:02) To be picky I wouldn't describe your upper body as unattached on a steep, you use your core to drive the board round and follow the shoulders, as you would with a 180. Also, if you're that concerned about talking about other body parts why mention the head lol? The head has no effect on the board if your just using your neck to look around, unless, for example you're using it to direct the shoulders on say a heelside turn or a 360.
Sorry I should have used the word separation rather than unattached, ie. for steeps: anticipation of the next turn will require you to have some separation of the upper and lower body.
QUOTE (itsgot - 10/09/2010 @ 17:02) In general, and I'm just taking a punt, I think the point in shoulder turning as a beginner is that most beginners and in fact most people on the mountain are counter rotated all day long, ruddering their back foot round and all weighted on their back on anything steep. By leading with the shoulders it should force them to correct these things. I mean, you have to exagerate movements for beginners and just saying 'stay parallel to the board' probably doesn't cut it.
I agree, the majority of people you see on the hill use counter rotation. The easiest way to snowboard is incorrectly. In terms of what Phil mentions about teaching systems, unfortunately whatever systems you have in place they will fail if people don't have lessons. Too many people have a weeks worth of lessons and think they've cracked it. Hey if I'd not had another lesson after my first week of lessons and two further weeks I would be snowboarding with a bag load of counter rotation! I however think teaching using the shoulders to initiate the turn leads to more people using counter rotation as it teaches them to use their upper body to turn rather than their lower half. |
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| #18 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 11/09/2010 @ 13:40 |
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I think a few people are in danger of agreeing on something.
I'm personally delighted that teaching systems seem to be getting better, although still disappointed at the lack of obvious effect on riders. Quite possibly it is a "market reach" issue with teaching: snowboarding has the advantage of being easy to do badly. That doesn't matter so long as people have fun, but I think there's a limit to how much fun being bad at something is. I guess I'd like there to be more "marketing" drive towards learning how to ride, and less on selling gear... and it's hardly surprising which of those two provides the finance stream needed for the magazines. I digress, but there's still no snow here. |
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| #19 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 11/09/2010 @ 16:50 |
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Thats the best summery ever from PhilW.
Write a book , everyone else is coining it, at least the book would be true if even more differcult longer learning methods.
Call it.. the limit at being hopeless but having fun in milton keynes with a empty wallet.
You may not be popular with the lemmings though.
I like the german version of opening and closing the door with two week skiers
ching ching, round and round they go for more lessons,never ever ever get better.Never.
Same principle in boarding with shoulders but we are having fun ,that will be £30, see you tommorrow.
The classic was from a poor british girl here still trying too progress after her holiday, she questioned her very old Austrian instructors methods and the setup, over milton keynes teachings.
She new it was conflicting but could not put her finger on it understanderbly
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This set the very basics up for subversion such as, those are old methods, he was old don,t listen too a sausage.
Don,t listen too a austrian of 50 years in the mountains,gimme a break.
Mean while back on the big Island GB with only a dome and a vested interest?
Two sides of a tale. |
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| #20 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 12/09/2010 @ 13:46 |
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It's a difficult thing to market in reality. If someone thinks they can snowboard and don't need any more lessons how do you get them to do so? I'm sure they'd rather save their money and spend it on apres ski or new gear. You can't exactly tell someone their riding stinks and they should have a lesson or two. |
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| #21 Re: Terminology Check: Foot Steering, Foot Peddling, Pushing Back Foot Out Posted 12/09/2010 @ 15:35 |
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Your right Fatbob but so is philw who can put things less abrasively/better than I can.
I think its much bigger picture though and one day it will turn around a bit if someone can make money from the new method or latest defined teachings which won,t be really new at all.
Comp in a market place is best for all, gives choice and temps things abit.
The constrants on british riders just getting too a mountain opens them up too marketing and belief before they go.Which is the bit I think is played on so heavily, it becomes a ship of fools.
If you did tell them they ride bad and it stinks, who would tell the instructors system the same and so on, so you can,t really as its a bigger picture.
I think Phils main point is the"fun limit" he mentions and the market just keeps carrying/coining them when its time too leave the nest.
As you say alot are mostly happy with fashion music and a bar.
Or maybe thats my point which is no big deal, as it won,t change anything.Hope you all get some deep stuff in few months. |
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